Over at Reason Blog site we have this post that ends up with a video clip of President Bill Clinton♠ talking to Reporter Wolfe Blitzer about people out there who are "less stable". In the clip the former President draws attention to the Oklahoma City bombing, apparently suggesting that the "Tea Party" movement could stir up another such action.
There is no doubt in my mind that there are people on the fringes of the Tea Party movement who are kookie and even one or two who might be prone to violence, but in fact we have not seen such people in action. And, they are on the fringes of every movemkent. Yesterday I was at an academic conference on the consequences of military defeat for the loser and one of the attendees was a person who works at a law firm as a clerk and hopes to one day be a lawyer. His hobby horse was that the way to bring peace is to put a stop to state owned enterprises, which are a source of conflict in the world (his focus being mainland China).
Yes, there is the fringe and always has been. Heck, back in 1970 a PhD researcher I had previously met was killed when some people, still walking the streets (and advising the president), stirred up four students at the University of Wisconsin, who then planted a bomb that blew up a building at the University. The bomb killed the person I knew person and injured another. But, that is not a reason to end political discourse.
Back to the Tea Party itself, if we wish to talk about the focus, the centroid of the Tea Party movement, we could do no better than go back and read Rights and Duties of Capital and Labor, which also touches on the role of the individual and the state (government). It is a very short little pamphlet, which I just skimmed through, again, this morning.
I will grant you the language is a little dated, but the author, Count Vincenzo Gioacchino Raffaele Luigi Pecci, was actually born 200 years ago this last month. In the pamphlet the Count makes the point for the principle of subsidiarity♥, which is the basic point being made by the majority of the people who turn out for Tea Party rallies.
Regards — Cliff
♠ Are vests back?
♥ Granted, the EU, which is cited in the Wikipedia article, doesn't come across as really embodying the principle of subsidiarity.
Did you even read the speech? His comment related to tea parties was that the original/actual tea party protested taxation without representation, NOT taxation by duly-elected representatives. (The implication being the proper recourse is VOTING, not violence).
ReplyDeleteI thought his points about violent rhetoric were well made.
I listened to his speech...at least the parts that were available. It was a typical Bill Clinton rant. His point seemed to be that the emotion involved and incited by protest movements MAY serve as a trigger for some fringe freak to go much further. His posit is nothing new or even impressive. Some people go to a cocktail party and have a few drinks and go home. Others go to the same party, get blown out of their socks and then proceed to do something heinous. People are kind of funny that way.....and the science of predicting behavioral outcomes of various stimulii is a black art at best.
ReplyDeleteI do disagree with your suggestion Kad. Yes, the orginal tea party was celebrated over taxation without representation, but the current version is essentially protesting the same outcome....just because there is representation doesn't mean that you are represented. In fact, the whole taxation issue is quite secondary to the issue of a Congress who has become pious and self serving, no longer even interested in representing the electorate who gave them the job. THAT is the core issue for the tea party today.
My fear with the TP is that it is becoming another political party destined to commit the same failures as the Dems and Reps. Already you are seeing more "corporate" thinking rather than simply grass roots dissatisfaction. Once it becomes a money making, power providing thing......it is not any longer "representative."
I did, in fact, listed to the clip of the interview, and read the extracts, as presented. I think we all agree that the proper recourse is voting and not violence. My point was that just because there are people who engage in violence doesn't mean that there should not be rallies and exchanges of ideas in anticipation of voting. Further, my point is that the Tea Party movement, at its core, has some respectable and long held views.
ReplyDeleteRegards — Cliff
N, the reason they're not being represented is that they lost the election. What you're suggesting seems to be the excessively politically correct idea that 'everybody wins,' which is great for the Special Olympics. But I don't think it has any place in politics.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2010/04/tea-party-bears-becks-imprint.html
ReplyDelete... tea-partiers are disproportionately attached to, and perhaps influenced by, FOX News. And they are particularly enamored of Glenn Beck. Nationally, just 18 percent of people have a favorable opinion of Beck (the majority have no opinion whatsoever about him). But most tea-partiers do. Do the math, and you'll find that 59 percent of those who do think highly of Beck consider themselves a part of the tea-party. This is, in fact, the single biggest differentiator of any of the items that the NYT asked about: not ideology, not any particular political belief, but whom they watch on television.
Beck Montage: http://www.dailykos.com/tv/w/002087/
PS. I've been following the mythology of the Illuminati since the early '80s. Beck is feeding off that fear.
Actually Ratbass, what I am suggesting has nothing to do with winning the election but rather, that it is a (to quote His Holiness) "The election is over, I won, you lost. There is nothing left to talk about." Well, unless I've misread the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, it is not WE the Democrats, or WE the Republicans....it is WE the people....and the people are getting very, very, very tired of this pathetic, pathological political payback game that is played 365, 24/7 in the US District of Corruption. THAT...more than anything...is what has the grass roots in flames......a grass roots BTW that is composed of a large number of registered Democrats.
ReplyDeleteCome on Jack.....the NYT???? You actually offer up a "poll" conducted by teh NYT as "proof" of anything? CNN's ratings are in the tank, so is MSNBC. Right now, Fox is the only one growing in ratings...and Beck...who I actually have little use for because of his paranoid, juglar popping rants, is rated by the independent ratings folks at #6. I'm afraid that is more than TeaPartiers.
But that's okay....as long as Obamao continues to enjoy his delusional state...and takes his acolytes with him....the US of A and the world will be a better, safer place because the people of America will have a chance to right their egregious wrong.
"Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company." - George Washington
ReplyDeleteN, real cute. But the election shows that over half of the voters disagree with you. If you can change that fine. But that's what we go by.
ReplyDeleteCheck it out.....the election you refer to is well over a year old.....and there was no Tea Party then...so times "they are a changin'."
ReplyDeleteJack, I am just guessing that your quote is supposed to mean something to me. It does I suppose, but surely not in the way you intended. Better to be in the company of patriots and, dare I say, value the integrity of individual freedom over the faint-hearted surrender to the tyranny of the group-think. To keep the tree of liberty alive, it must occasionally be watered with the sweat and blood of patriots.
You do what you think you need to do.....and I'll do what I am free to do.
Neal, you don't seem to be having fun anymore.
ReplyDeleteLet's clearify a few things.
The "Tea Party" will now whither, as it won't be propped up by folks like Dick Armey and the PAC that work for lobbyists.
"We had two recent tea party demonstrations in Washington, one a week before the health care vote - drew about 1,000 people. The tax day rally, by the organizers own estimate was 1,500 people. If I organized a rally for stronger laws to protect puppies, I would get 100,000 people to Washington. So, I think the media has blown the tea party themselves out of proportion."
-Pennsylvania Gov. Ed Rendell (D), in an interview on Meet the Press.
------------------
You should be wary about throwing around one of Timothy McVeigh's favorite quote's
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mcveigh/t-shirt.jpg
Some folks don't just shoot their mouths off.
-------------------
In 2000, after the SCOTUS scorecard ruled Dubya winner, the Left reeled in disgust. Their complaints were labled as "poor losers" & "cry babys."
While the "politician formerly known as maverick" dithers in the dustbin of history, proponents of "real America" call to arms as "patriots."
Sad, actually. The America we see today has been on it's way since 1776. It's so unfortunate that lost souls feel compelled to fortify their illusion, rather than embrace the pure beauty of our nation.
N,
ReplyDeleteHave fun in Vegas.
The lesson here for me is to not write long blog posts. I was hoping to see a discussion of how Rerum Novarum related to the central ideas of the Tea Party. It seems everyone stopped reading before they got that far, or it was too esoteric.
ReplyDeleteBut, back to Kad Barma, no, I didn't read the speech, but the blog post and watched the video clip. On this anniversary of the Oklahoma City Bombing, the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building, it seems a tad tacky to mention that Timothy McVeigh's motivation was probably not the size of the national debt. It is more likely it was the botched arrest of David Koresh and the associated collateral damage—collateral damage that if it had taken place in Afghanistan today would have merited an apology to the family by a general office and probably some sort of financial restitution, Diyya, in Arabic.
Timothy McVeigh was wrong to take matters into his own hands. He thus went to trial and reaped his reward for his rash and foolish and frankly evil act.
Former President Bill Clinton bringing this up with regard to the Tea Party movement is a sign of either a lack of insight or rank cynicism.
Regards — Cliff
Let's re-orient our reality map some.
ReplyDeleteWhen Mr. William Kostric opted, while protesting near POTUS, to concurrently hold a sign with a reference to the Jefferson quote and bearing a sidearm, he invited the comparison.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYUmCj4yud4
Cliff, your party has been playing with fire. While Boehner wears that shit eating grin, smart Republicans, like you, should be working on an exit strategy.
Enjoy the pure beauty of our nation? The current party in power is nothing at all related to beauty.
ReplyDeleteRatbass, I'd love to enjoy Vegas, but with the tax burden that MUST grow exponentially, I won't be able to afford a nickel slot, let alone any REAL games of chance....like Presidential and Congressional elections. Other Americans and I will be too busy paying through the rectum for all that "beauty" Jack speaks so admiringly of.
If Dubya had made a similar comparison to that made by Blowjob Bill, the liberal press would have roasted his cashews for days. Instead, what we get now is pious condemnations of the participants of a lawful rally. Or.....is a rally in which folks disagree with the agenda of the LIBERALs just not lawful? Seems you are suggesting that. It's only lawful if you agree with Obamao.
Last I checked...it was "We the people...." not "the Dems"...but "oh" the sore losers want to play payback now?
Yeah....America the beautiful.
I have yet to hear about any TP rallies being teargassed and disbanded.
ReplyDeleteI reserve my right to point my finger and say "Hey! Look over there. A mob of angry people. They are yelling some wacky bullshit."
The party of self reliance is so cute when they play the victim card.
Aww. Now we see the violence inherent in the system.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o76WQzVJ434
Touche Jack.....and I too reserve my right to point my gnarly index finger (only because good taste precludes the use of another) at a crowd of Dimocrats and yell, "Look, a bunch of kumbaya liberals spouting nirvana and shouting some whacky bullshit about spending more of my money to get there."
ReplyDeleteThe Reps may well be the party of "No" but the Dims are the party of "No Limits," especially since it ain't their money.